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I tell people all the time, therapy is just a conversation. There is no magic that happens. Sometimes people just need a place to talk through things.

Doc David

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey friends, Doc David here. We're gonna do something a little different today.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

You are listening to Hedgehog Game. Your ancestor life, relationships, anything we live in.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Hey guys, happy summer. Uh it's audio is gonna be a little bit weird with this one. Um I have a client that I'm gonna record it with in a session. Um they are okay with doing this, and um we shall see what happens. Like I said, the micing situation is not ideal, so it does sound kind of like I'm in a box. So bear with us as we do this today. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Did you like bring this from home? Like, where'd this come from?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

No, it's like I always have it here.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Why?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Because I do podcasting occasionally.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

I've told you about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Go get the tissue. Get the tissue.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

I'm not gonna need tissues.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Okay. We shall see. Alright.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Well the only thing that makes me nervous about it is that like if Jason heard it to like just hear what he had to say. Like actually what he had to say. Which actually might be interesting, though.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Well, we'll decide if we post it after we're done.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Okay. So the So I have a question for you that you can answer on it. Yes. What's the cure to anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I mean, it kind of depends on where the anxiety shows up for you. Because there's a lot of answers.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Because I feel like it's ramping up a lot lately.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Um, do you have any kind of potential source for it that you can think of?

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Sometimes, but not always. Okay. So, like, something that's really stupid that happens is every time, like, literally every time I travel. If I'm waking up early the next morning to go on vacation, I am literally so sick to my stomach that like I could be like physically sick.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Um what? No, no guess.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

No, and it's like even if I am like fully packed, ready to go. So like I went um on a hike on Sunday with one of my good friends, and she was like picking me up at 6, and so I had to like get up and get up early and get ready. And it's normally only like the early get up and go. If I'm like getting on an airplane at night, like normally it doesn't do it. But like I had anxiety all night the night before, and then even going into the morning. Like, it's almost like I think I'm gonna forget something, but all I needed that day was like a water and snacks because she was like supplying everything else.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

So then does it go away? No. Eventually.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

So even when you not in not until like I'm like either like there or okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

So would you say that that's been consistent your whole life or just recently?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Um, at least years. Like the last probably, I don't know, I would say. I mean, I guess I've always I guess I've always had it when I travel. Because like when I mean I didn't really travel when I was a kid, but like Jason and I dating, like I would get anxiety leaving.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Hmm. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think typically people will take medication for so it doesn't happen when I come home. But for example, uh if you know, like, oh man, I'm starting to feel nervous or anxious about something, is it in your stomach where you start kind of feeling that? So there's there's medication specifically for that that you take as needed.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

So that's that's always whenever I get anxiety about anything, it's always in my stomach. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah, I I think what I generally tell people around anxiety is that get absolutely getting rid of anxiety for people that struggle with it, it's not likely that you're gonna get rid of it. So it's it's finding ways to tolerate it. And so then you just learn to tolerate it, whether it's you take medication. I think it's called hydroxizine, is the medication that you would take. Okay. Um because if it's very specific, if it's centers very specifically around something like that, um, I I couldn't tell you exactly why it is, other than there's like anticipation anxiety. Like, are you thinking are you then thinking of all the horrible things that are gonna happen?

SPEAKER_02 4:56

No.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Okay. So even like when you plan a trip to Disney?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Really? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Um, it'll be interesting to see if it happens, because we leave on the first for um the Alaska cruise. Oh yeah. But I'm not getting on an airplane, but I'm still having to wake up early in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Who's going?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Me, Jason, the kids, and Jason's parents.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

That'll be they travel with us a lot though, so it's not like a new thing. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Um super early because that cruise leaves out of Seattle and it leaves at like four.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah, we'll probably well, we will get on the ship at 12. So, like with getting there and packing and like um parking and stuff, we'll probably leave our house around like eight or nine.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah. So is any of it uh excitement anxiety? Um it probably doesn't feel like excitement.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

No, it it literally like brings me down. Like I like, I mean, no, I don't think so. Because like I can be excited about something. Like, I literally have the feeling in my stomach right now.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Right. Why?

SPEAKER_02 6:16

I don't know. I literally know. I've been having it like almost daily.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Oh. When's your next doctor's appointment?

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Whenever I schedule one.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I mean, you probably should. Do you have a doctor? Yeah. You probably should. If it's something that you're experiencing daily, it's probably something that you should at least get checked out.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

But like, wouldn't they just put me on like an antidepressant again?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Um, no.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Because I don't want that.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

No, I mean that's where you would say, if it's not related to depression, but it's related more to anxiety, you just tell your doctor that.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Well, how would I know? It's dumb. I'm telling you. That's how you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

No, there's like there is a thing called anxious depression. It's not an actual diagnosis, but it's when like depression and anxiety are kind of together. So I I often will term it as like it's the different sides of the same coin, or they're the cousins. And so a person has a lot of depression and they're frustrated with it, and then it morphs into anxiety, but then they have so much anxiety that it leaves them depressed, like this is never gonna change in my life, and so then the two kind of work together. Um, but if you're saying it's more much more anxiety related than anything else. So if it's happening daily, it doesn't hurt to go to a doctor and just I'm not afraid to go to a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

I just don't wanna. I just the the few times that I've been on medication, it seems like it's been an antidepressant. And I even with like the depression side of it, I just never felt like it did anything.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

So you know you don't have to. The doctor's not you've got to take this.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

So which is why I just stopped getting my refills.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Okay. I don't yeah, I don't know, that's a great idea. Uh I would say you just go to the doctor. How about this? How about going to a naturopath?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Or is that kooky?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

I mean, I feel like that's like something you have to like believe in. In a sense.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

And you don't?

SPEAKER_02 8:32

I'm not saying I don't, but I don't have an experience with that.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Well, they can prescribe you um hydroxine as well. Okay. Um, so there's two main meds. One's hydroxizine. I think that's more related to the kind of the feelings in your stomach. Propranolol is another one, and that's more related to heart. So a lot of times when people have anxiety, their heart thumps out of their chest. And so propranolol is used as like a I think it's called a beta blocker, I think. And so it's used for heart palpitations and stuff. So both of those are as needed. Or I've I've heard of them being used as as needed. So I would say talk to your doctor about it, and then they could say, Do you want a prescription? You could say anxiety as needed med, and go from there.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah, because I um like the I had like what you guess I guess you could consider like a panic attack or anxiety, whatever you want to call it. Um, like last week, I was like, I went into the bathroom and I literally sat on the toilet and my chest started like it felt really heavy, and then I felt like I had like a lump in my throat, and it was like my whole chest. I've had chest pains before, but it's like in like one spot, like a stabbing spot, but this was like my whole chest, and then I felt like I had like this lump, like like I couldn't swallow like a dry muffin or something. And so I didn't have my watch on, so I went and charged it really quick and to check like my heart rate because I felt like my heart was not beating fast, but I could just like feel it like pounding so hard, and my heart rate was like normal, and then it went away, and it lasted a good 10 minutes, and then it went away. That dog and I are on the same schedule. That's the last dog that I saw when I was here. Oh really?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah. Two weeks ago.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Um so when your heart's doing okay, so what was the surroundings of the I was literally getting ready for bed.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

And then it went away, and then I laid down, and then it came back again, and it happened a second time, twice in 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Uh does do you feel lightheaded when it's happening? I don't really remember if I was or not. Do you feel like your heart skipping a beat at all or anything?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

I just felt it pounding like so hard. And I wasn't really like paying attention to anything else besides like the pressure and then the lump, and then I was worried about. I felt like if I would have checked my heart rate, it would have been really high, but it wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, so why do I why do you not want to go to a doctor again?

SPEAKER_02 11:15

It's not that I don't want to, I just like don't know if they're just gonna be like, oh, it's anxiety, like I've had my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Well, uh let's just say it is, then good. That's good news, I suppose, because um I would be curious to know what that is. Like, is it a panic attack? Because I think usually your heart rate would be elevated. Um did you tell anyone else or were you? Jason was home. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

No, I told him.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Um like he wasn't around for the first one because he was in the bathroom, but then he got out. My second one was like coming on, and he was like sitting there with me.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

So that's where I think if you don't go talk to a doctor, a naturopath, whatever, um, then it goes unresolved, and then because in that moment you could have taken whatever med to help calm nerves, and so then that's not an antidepressant. It could even be um like a Xanax or Valium, but again, I don't you'd have to talk to a doctor because I don't prescribe. So those are just options potentially for that. But but it's nothing related to work or interacting with people or coming here.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

I never am nervous to come here.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Okay. Because I'm just so easy to get along with. It's like must be tonight to stay.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Tonight. Um, I've never been anxious to do therapy. Like, I get excited to do it because I know I need it, and and like me talking is like healing for me. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Well, what are we talking about today then?

SPEAKER_02 12:56

How to cure anxiety. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

I mean, if I knew how to cure it, that's why I think you will run. I'm sure if you Google how to cure anxiety, there's gonna be water and breathe. Yeah, there's gonna be people out there that says, take this supplement. Yeah. Then it'll this helped me.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Uh maybe that'll work. It's just I my experience with people that have anxiety is that they have to learn ways to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

It's like one, it's not a one-size-fits-all. My brother suffers from anxiety as well, and he's like, you know, like he does this thing where he's like, live in the moment, just like realize that like you're good, and like what happened yesterday and what's happening tomorrow, like you're good, like you're happy, you're healthy, you're safe, like whatever. And like that brings him back down to earth. That doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

So that almost seems like an anxiety that's related to worry. Like, oh no, what's gonna happen tomorrow? What's gonna happen here, what's gonna happen there. Oh, did I make a mistake two days ago? I said this to somebody. Um, but that's not what you're I think that's what you're describing.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

No, and like our anxiety is is like very different. Like his gets really bad when he drinks, or worse when he drinks, but like he's been like pretty had some pretty low lows with his like anxiety and probably depression.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

And it's for you the depressions you're okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

I mean, I think I am, but like the last time, last two times that I was diagnosed with depression, like I didn't think that I was, and I especially the first time I didn't see it until I was out of it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

So you know, like looking back, then you know what it would actually look like for you.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah, and then because that was like postpartum depression for me, and um, and then so like when I had my second, I was like watching for like signs for that, but it like hit me differently.

unknown 14:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Um, because I was like trying to do like things differently and trying to be like more chill with my second one. And like, for example, if I can't nurse her, like it's not the end of the world. Like my first one was fine when she started formula, just like things like that to you know prepare myself.

unknown 15:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Um, but it just it hit me a little bit differently with Blakely, but but it wasn't as severe either. With Hayden, it was pretty bad.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

I mean it could have been a lot worse, but it was bad for me. Okay. Um so So that's my other fear is like if it wasn't like postpartum related, like if I did slip, like what would it look like?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Well, I don't know. I mean, what do you think it would look like?

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Um, well, I feel like there's classic things, but yeah. I don't know. I feel like I would like hunker down again and like just want to be at home and not work and things like that. You don't want to get out of bed. Uh I would get out of bed, but I wouldn't want to like leave the house. Okay. And sometimes I still find myself like like I feel like I have like social anxiety sometimes where I like try and get myself out of, like, we had um on Sunday we had a housewarming party, and I was like almost talking myself out of going like it was gonna be a hassle to go two blocks out of the direction that we were going because I didn't know anybody besides the people that were throwing the party.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

That is a hassle. Isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

I mean, yeah, it was fine though.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Uh I mean that depends on like if you're more of an extrovert. Introvert? I know like with depression, a lot of times, so it's the staying home, it's the not showering, it's the not take just generally not taking care of yourself, personal hygiene, not eating, breathing too much. Those are like the obvious symptoms, and it seems like your husband would notice that that's happening and probably say something.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Well, they didn't the first time until it was like I was like too far in.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Well, I think a lot of times guys don't I just to TikTok on this. Like I think guys don't get postpartum. A lot of guys don't get postpartum. No, in fact, they just think, oh, just suck it up. You'll be fine. Yes, you just had a baby, I know, but yeah, they don't realize all of the the hormones and stuff that are going on.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Well, it's like the same thing with anxiety. He used to like not get mad, but like he would he'd be like, What's wrong? Like, why are you upset? Why are you having anxiety? And I'm like, I don't know. And he's like, just tell me, and I'm like, I don't know. Like, I literally can't tell you. It's not I'm not hiding something, I just don't know. And it took him years and years. And I was just talking to my friend about this, like, her boyfriend doesn't get it, and I'm like, he won't. He's just gonna have to learn that, like, when you have anxiety, that you need X, Y, and Z, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

My so even me, when people talk about anxiety, I want to try to pinpoint something, but sometimes you just can't pinpoint something. Yeah, my daughter has it still, I think, a little bit, but really had it bad a couple years ago, and it does create some frustration. Like, come on, why can't you do this thing? Yeah. Um so I just I suggest to partners just to be more understanding as best they can be. But if they if they're not generally, then it becomes really difficult for them to be more understanding.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Um yeah, and for Jason to like not be like pissy, and I I'm just like, I need you to just be like there and like supportive if I need it, but like don't ask me a million questions. Like, if I have something, I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

But I don't.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Do you and generally you're honest about like if you're upset about something, you're gonna say something.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

I think a lot of I mean with Jason, yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, I mean I think a lot of times typically what happens is a partner's upset and they their partner says, What's wrong? And the answer is nothing. Yeah. But really that's actual lie, it's an actual lie.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

So I mean, I do that at times, but if it's really something that's bothering me, like, I mean, I would tell him. Right. I mean, for the most part. Like, I've noticed that like I've had in the last year a lot of anxiety around alcohol, just in general, whether I'm drinking or he's drinking or people around me are drinking, like, so much anxiety. And like really, yeah, and like even when he is like, Do you want to drink? I'm like, no, and it literally flips my stomach. And um, if he wants to drink, I like literally could get physically sick just talking to you about it.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

And now you're gonna go on a cruise where there's gonna be drinking.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Yeah, but that like it doesn't bother me when he drinks on the cruise because he doesn't like he's it's almost like when he drinks um like around other people, it's almost like he tries to like be cool and show off or something. And I think that's what gets me. Like, my sister's wedding is not this weekend but next. And oh my god, it literally makes me sick thinking about it. But like, seriously, it makes my stomach so sick.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

So that's like anxiety then. Yes, showing up for that.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Yes, so So like I'm not gonna drink. If I do, it's not gonna be a lot because my body like can't handle alcohol, and the older I get, the worse it gets, and the next day I am just filled with anxiety and sick all day long. But if I don't drink, he's now on this thing lately where it's like, well, if you're not gonna drink, then I'm gonna drink, because you're normally the one that drinks, and we have to have a DD. So if you're gonna be the DD, then I'm gonna drink. So if he if I don't drink at the wedding, there's like this pressure like if I don't drink, then he's gonna drink. But if he drinks, like I don't like how he acts when he drinks.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

You could pretend drink.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

We could.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Is this do you think any of this is related to your dad?

SPEAKER_02 21:08

I mean, maybe, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Because have you always had that issue around the drinking? No. It's just been a recent.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Yeah, I think it stemmed from which I don't know why it would like keep bothering me, but last year one of my girlfriends had a bachelorette party, and there was like so much pressure in drinking, and like I didn't want to the next day because I was hungover from the day before, and there was a lot of pressure, and her and I got into a pretty big fight, and like we almost like I almost like cut her off, like out of my life. Oh, I think you tell me about that. Probably.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And then I was You were a bridesmaid, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah, and then I told her about it, um, and we kind of like resolved things, and then I just still hang it over her head and about it. Like what?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

And prior to that, you don't you can't really identify anxiety around drinking.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

No.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Huh. Wonder what I wonder, I mean, what's your guess on why that is then?

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Either like just like the pure pressure, probably. Yeah. And then like I know how it alcohol makes me feel, and I know that I can't handle it, like people can, and I don't want to feel like shit the next day. And so like it's either I get anxiety from the pure pressure, or I drink and I'm sick the next day. So either way, I get sick.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

And then with your husband, the it's the. I mean, there is pressure there too.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Because if I don't drink, he does. Right. But I'm like, why can't we just not drink? Like, why do we both why do we both have to why does one of us have to be drinking?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

I have you asked that?

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Well, not like specifically, and I'm like kind of like nervous to talk to him about it just because of the way that he reacts about stupid shit. So he would probably be like, Well, it's okay if you drink, so why can't I?

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Right, well, that'd be the low emotional intelligence response, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:13

It would be like you always get to drink and have fun, so why can't I? And it's like we were at my cousin's wedding last year, and he had like a Jack and Coke, and I was drinking margaritas, but like I wasn't drinking a lot, so we would we were fine to drive. Um, but he was drinking like a jack and coke, but it was like too strong, and he had a Coke, like a little Coke can in the other hand. He was like drinking this one and chasing it with the Coke. And so I was like, just pour the Coke into your already Jack and Coke to make it not so strong because you look stupid chasing a mixed drink with a Coke. And it was just it's like it was like embarrassing, you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:53

To you.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Why why do you care?

SPEAKER_02 23:57

I don't know. I was just like annoyed, and I was just like, you look so dumb. Like, you're like trying to show off that you're drinking, but you can't even drink.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

So is it enjoyable? Like when you drink, do you think, oh, this really tastes good. I love this.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Sometimes, yes. Like if I have a cider or something, or a good margarita, yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Okay, and would you say the same for him?

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Hmm. I mean, it depends on what he's drinking. But sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

I mean, because you could have I it would require a a difficult conversation. So when's your cruise?

SPEAKER_02 24:34

It's like a sort of week away, but it doesn't bother me when he drinks on vacation.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Right, I'm just I'm saying that that would be an important distinction if you're gonna have a conversation with him. That you know, this part doesn't bother me. But the the piece that does bother me is the the wedding, for example.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

And which is next weekend.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

See if you can have an agreement. Like, would you be willing? And that would be the way you need to say it is like, would you be willing to not drink more than what two drinks?

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Yeah, because that's the other thing that he does, is like he's a bigger dude, so like if he drinks, like he doesn't have a high um alcohol tolerance because he doesn't drink, so he'll like pound one and then he'll go and get another one, and I'm like, you need to slow down, like it's gonna hit you, you know. Like he doesn't drink much, so I don't know if he knows, you know, that or I don't know, it's just weird.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Can you say that to him? That's micromanager.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Some sometimes I'm like, you're like you're gonna get sick, like you literally just like took two shots, you know, or whatever. And we don't drink like that, so I don't know why he like tries to show off is what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Well, so I I would think that's where you'd have to have a conversation because my whole family is alcoholics, like you can't keep up. So you're ascribing a thing to his behavior, which I don't think you you that's your own stuff, the showing off piece. And that's where I you'd probably want you would want to have a conversation with him to determine what why do you do this? Coming from a place of curiosity and understanding. So because if you say it to him like you just want to show off, it's just gonna like his fists are gonna go up and he's gonna want to argue with you. I think. Um is your family gonna be at this point?

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yes, my entire family. So it's my sister's wedding.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Oh, okay. So it's gonna be a booze fest.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Yes, and his friends, like the husband's friends and family, like everybody. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

You could probably get some funny videos of drone.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

I'm probably gonna have anxiety all day long.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Well, step back for a minute with that, because anxiety related to I'm not able to control any of these people to do what I want them to do.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

No, I don't know what caveat answer.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

I literally can't sometimes pinpoint it. But I know that I'm gonna go there and I'm gonna be high strung all day long because I because of the alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Yeah. So if what about if you have alcohol at your house and he's drinking?

SPEAKER_02 27:26

I'm fine if he drinks. The only thing is that like if he tries to get like annihilated, like he'll just like pound a drink, or if he hides it from me, that gets me. Like he'll be in the kitchen, and if I'm sitting on the couch, like I can see you. Like our living room and our kitchen and our dining room are one big rectangle, and so he'll like get something out of the cupboard, and if I see it out of the corner of my eye, like I'll just like whatever, like you can drink, like I don't care. But the way that he like pours it on the counter, like behind like something, like kind of like out of view, right? But like I know that you're drinking, and like I'm all you're gonna come sit down and I'm gonna be like, Oh, what are you drinking? Like, you just have an orange juice? No. So, like, obviously, I'm gonna know. So, like the hiding it bothers me.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Well, the hiding it piece, would he acknowledge that?

SPEAKER_02 28:23

No, he wouldn't, he wouldn't know. No, because he'd be like, Well, uh or he'll come, he'll make it, and then he'll like come over and hand it to me, and I'm like, no, I don't want to drink. Like, even if I like he would offer me a sip, or like he would offer me a drink, because if I'm drinking, then it's okay if he drinks, but I don't drink at home anymore.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

How far away is the wedding?

SPEAKER_02 28:46

It's in Elma.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

So we will drive home.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Well, I'm just wondering, like, stuff around this, like, people have complicated relationships with alcohol, and what you're describing is that he possibly has a complicated relationship with alcohol.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yeah, he has also two alcoholic brothers.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

And it I I would say there's probably some anxiety around that because you one, you can't control him, and two, I don't know if he's gonna listen to you and be reasonable with you about it. Do you think he never is well I mean you haven't, I would say you haven't asked him.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

No, but he would turn it on me, like he always does, and I feel like I've been finding myself saying that a lot lately. Like, like, don't flip this on me, like, take accountability for your actions, and then I'll take accountability of mine, because he just would flip it. So, like, if I were to ask him about drinking, then he would flip it and say, Well, you're gonna drink at the wedding, or will you if well are you?

SPEAKER_00 29:47

What are you gonna drink at the wedding?

SPEAKER_02 29:51

I mean, if I did, it would be like mimosas getting ready in the morning, but like if I had a mimosa, it would be one or two, and like that's like So that's I mean, I think that that is a much more reasonable stance to take.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Because it it would be hard to if you say to someone, could you not drink and oh by the way, I'm gonna be drinking, that would be a hypocrite. Hard.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

I don't know if a hypocrite, but it'd be hard to take, especially if you're thinking, oh, free booze, I don't have to pay for it.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Um but I think it's he probably wouldn't drink it, he might not drink at the wedding anyways, just because there's not gonna be anything he likes there. It's gonna be beer.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

I think probably what's much more reasonable is to have a conversation about, hey, can we have an agreement of how much what's the most we're gonna drink at the wedding, knowing that we're gonna need to drive home and also knowing that we want to have a pleasant time. Right, because then it's it's not just you um micromanaging him, you're just trying to have an agreement with your partner.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

The other thing is like he doesn't give two shits how much I drink because when I drink, he knows that he's gonna get some. So that's the other thing, is like there's also there's also pressure.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Do you know that about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

I mean, if I'm drunk enough, like, I mean, I don't have to be drunk, but like if I'm buzzed, you know, like I get more lovey. And he knows that. And so that's the other pressure, is like, if I drink, then he's like, oh, well, I have a potential for it's an action.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

So if you don't drink, then there's no potential for action.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

None. Zero.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

So therefore, by drinking, it should have means you have interest in action.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

To him it does. That's what he says.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

But not to you.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Or if I'm like, no, I mean, not that's not my end game. But is that is his.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Because he's told you that?

SPEAKER_02 32:04

No, because I can see it on his face.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

If I can get my wife boozy.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Because like if I can. Because like if I have a drink, then he'll be like, oh, do you want like, do you want another one? Do you want to take a shot? I'm like, no. So I know that he knows.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

That's like such a typical guy. I know.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

He does not think with his head first.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Uh, that's funny. Um. So what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Never drink again. No, obviously. Or drink every day of my life so he doesn't become a raging alcoholic. Yeah, that would fit right in.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

No, I so the since this wedding's happening in a we're this weekend?

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Yeah, next weekend. The 26th.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Um I mean, it seems reasonable to have a conversation with him.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

I just feel like it would be so out of the blue, too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Really?

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Yeah, because I don't like telling that I have issues with him drinking. Like, I like I've never been like, hey, I don't like it when you drink.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Oh. So you've just been kind of keeping it somewhere. Soaking on this and kind of being annoyed.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Um well that's unfair. I mean, I think that if this is an issue that creates distance between you, you probably should have a conversation about it, right? Probably. Okay. Okay. So will you then?

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Well, it's just not an easy like thing to talk about either. Because like alcohol is such a big thing, like, in both of our lives. So.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

How is it a big thing in your life?

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Because of my dad.

unknown 33:50

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

And just like my family, my brother's really bad, my sister is too, but she hides it. My mom's really bad, she tries to hide it, but I'm not stupid. Okay. Like, I grew up with it. That's why I get so upset when he tries to hide it. But if I said like, hey, you're pouring it behind the apple juice container, like, and I can't see it, he'd be like, I'm not hiding it, I'm just pouring it on the counter.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yeah, well, I think what you just described, like when you say you have anxiety around it, I think what you just described is this path of anxiety that's been created where all of these people in your life have drank alcohol and you realize like the detriment that it's been. And so then you are in your own family, and I think you don't want that to what you experienced growing up, the like that 12-year-old person experienced, you don't want that for your girls and for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Now, is there emotion around this for you? What's the emotion? Because usually you're good at identifying.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Which like alcohol from both parents, because my dad prior is priority. I mean, he always prioritized it over us and was always gone. Same thing with my mom alcohol has always been a priority to my dad, it still is.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Um and he puts it over my kids now, too, even.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

How so?

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Because he'd rather be at the bar and drinking than with us and visiting. I mean, if I asked him, he would obviously, but like, he doesn't make the effort to like be with us because he has other priorities.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Okay. So there's fear, possibly, around this in relationship to husband?

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Of him doing it?

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

I don't think that he would with alcohol. Like, I don't I don't think that he would become an alcoholic. Like, that's not a fear.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Okay, so let's say so but there's anxiety around it. Yeah. And so is it j so the abandonment. Do you think that he'll play let's say he doesn't become a full-blown alcoholic, but he places the priority on, oh, I want to drink and I don't care what my wife has to say.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

I mean he could.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

I mean, that's what you're telling me it's gonna happen if you try to have a conversation with him.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah, because he would, again, like I said, flip it on me and be like, well, it's okay for you to do it, so why can't I?

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Well, I mean, you could address that by saying, Well, I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Yeah, like if I, if if he literally was like, hey, I don't want you to drink ever again because it bothered. Like, I literally don't need alcohol. I don't need to drink. So if we took that out of our life 100%, I would be more than okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

And you don't think he would be.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Um I think he would, I don't think that he would have an issue with it. Like if I was really serious about it, I don't think he would. But he wouldn't, he probably wouldn't want to.

unknown 37:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

Just for the fact of like, you know, going on vacation and having a drink, like, I don't know. I honestly actually don't know.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

So I guess I would say that, like, when we talk about anxiety, what you're saying is like there's so the anxiety that you experience is kind of multifaceted. So this anxiety around I don't know if you call it excitement ex anxiety, but around trips.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

No, I wouldn't call it excitement.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Or unknown.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's almost like I am worried that like I forgot something or something's gonna maybe we'll miss our fli I don't know, like running late, like So fear of the unknown anxiety. Yeah. Cause like if I mean, and sometimes I'll be like, oh we'll leave we'll be on our way, and I'm like, well, I guess if we forgot something, we'll just have to buy it. Like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

So that anxiety I think is different than this other anxiety that you're talking about related to this upcoming wedding. And I I can't even imagine, like, so you're at the wedding and you're seeing these family members just boozing it up. How are you going to not be irritated?

SPEAKER_02 38:51

I don't get irritated when other people drink. Like, I don't care if people drink. I just like your dad. Yeah, like that's I mean, that's just like he's just gonna drink. There's you know, I've just like come to terms with like that's just how he is, you know. Okay. But it's also like the like for the bachelorette, like just my sisters that we just went on, my cousin, I told my sister, I was like, I'll drink, but I'm not getting drunk. Like, I can't handle alcohol, and she's like, no, it's fine. And she actually told a co-worker, like, I hope that my sister can like have fun because her anxiety gets the best of her sometimes, and and so she knew that going in, and I told her I was like, There will be no peer pressure for me to drink, and if there is, like, I'm not falling into it like I did at Jesse's, you know, and I like very clearly set boundaries, and my cousin got drunk, and my cousin is being so stupid, and she reminded me so much of my dad, and just how some people get when they're drunk, and I just hate it so much, and um, and so I kind of was like faking having fun at that point, and then she was like, Why aren't you drinking? And I'm like, I I don't want to, like, I can have fun without drinking, and so like I was standing up for myself this time to whereas I didn't at Jesse's. Um, and then finally I looked at my sister and I was like, I'm not going to drink, and I just was like at my sister, and she's like, Hey, like, I didn't know that, like, it's on you, you know, like she didn't care, but like I can have fun without drinking, and I don't care if people drink around me, but when they get to that like obnoxious point, that's where I'm like, I'm tapping out.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Okay. So then your nervous or your anxiety around your husband is that point is that he's gonna listen. I mean, he's gonna become belligerent not belligerent, but he's not gonna listen to you or care what you have to say in regards to the drinking.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

You mean like as far as like talking to him about it?

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Right, like, so he'll go to the he'll be at the wedding boozing it up and maybe being goofy and silly because of the drinking, and that's the part, is that are you anxious about that?

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Yeah, it's like the the point of him getting to that like annoying drunk that like I can't stand. Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

That wants you to get drunk so we can get some action later.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Well, he he wouldn't really try it if he was drinking. It's I don't know, it's different.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

So, I mean, there's I I think somehow there's a connection there because it's like this thing that you experienced all growing up with it's just alcoholism and um alcohol being placed as a priority over you. Um it does make complete sense to me why then, oh man, why you would dread going to this place where your husband's gonna be participating in this behavior that you're not a fan of, which is different than on the cruise.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Yeah, because like on the cruise he's not trying to get shit-faced, and he's also like not trying to show off for anybody because it's like just his parents or just us.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

But like when he gets around not show off, but this is the part where I think I would encourage you to think act differently. Okay, because then that's that's obvious, like he can't say I don't act differently when obviously you do when you're drunk. Right. People act differently when they're drunk.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Yes, and he doesn't do that around his parents, and even if he is getting pretty buzzed, like around his parents, or even at home around me, like I get annoyed when he like drinks too much, and I mean I say too much because like if he has two drinks and like I can tell that he's feeling a buzz and be like, like, I don't care, but if you go past this point, like I'm gonna get annoyed and I'll just like go to bed. But he doesn't do that on the cruise, and if he does, it doesn't bother me as much because he's not like he's he doesn't get to that point. Okay, and if he does for whatever reason, I don't know, maybe he doesn't act differently when we're on vacation or whatever, but when he's around my family or just friends or other people that he's maybe trying to be cool for. I don't know what it is, but he's just not the same person.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

So I think the conversation if you're gonna have a conversation with him, which I would suggest you do, sooner than later, because if you have it the day before the wedding, yeah, it it's gonna be pro possibly a fight, and then it's gonna just the wedding's gonna be weird.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Um the conversation would go like how how you feel. Like and you'd have to be really defined in what it is. Like, hey, when when you drink and you act different, it imp I feel this way. Now it's not blaming him for how. Remember, we don't blame him for how you feel. Because this is fully you. And then kind of your experience. And so typically what I would say is that partners would emotionally high emotional intelligent partners would say, Oh, I will, I don't want you to feel a certain way, so I'm gonna make sure that I'm responsible with my behavior. Um but absolutes happen. You're always drinking, and I should get to drink. Well, you're not always drinking, right? Right, but I think at a minimum it's reasonable to say, can we just have an agreement of some sort? Because I'm and then you talk about how your anxiety is going. Does he know your anxiety is spiked with it? And is he curious? Like, why is it spiked?

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Like with the alcohol or just in general?

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Just like with this upcoming wedding.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Like I don't think that we've like really necessarily narrowed it to the wedding specifically. Like he knows that I've been on edge a lot and I've had anxiety because when I get it, I'm just like constantly like just like heavy breathing. Um but I haven't like pinpointed it. It's been happening for I mean, at least a month, probably. Okay. That I've been, and I wouldn't say that it's every single day, but I will like it's it's quite a few days a week that it happens.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

So I think if you can have a have a conversation related to like, hey, my experience growing up was this with my parents drinking and all drinking and relationships being taken away from me because drinking was more important, and that, and I felt abandoned, I felt uncared for, whatever, like those kind of feeling words. And so when there's a potential for that, um, and you tell me you don't care, you're going to drink, I think that for this is what I think happens inside internally for you. It's like it's happening again, where the importance that's placed on alcohol is taking away someone I care about, and taking like getting in a getting involved in a relationship that I care about, and I don't want that to happen because that happened, I had that growing up. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yeah, but it wouldn't be like like controlling in a sense to be like we can only have two drinks, or like, you know, like that like agreement or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Well, it's only controlling if you say you will only have two drinks, or else I will drive away, or something. That would be controlling. I think what I'm suggesting is you make a request. Would you be willing to agree? And he can say no, or he can say yes or no. And I I think that's what uh relationships are supposed to be. They're supposed to be like you come up with compromises for things. So you're not saying don't drink, but you're saying don't get plastered drunk.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

Yeah. Well, and like I like I don't even know like if I even have like a number of drinks to put on it, just because like when we went to that wedding in last year, he like we also hadn't eaten, and so then he went and pounded some food or some drinks, and then he's like, I need food, and then he like kind of sobered up after that, but he was just like one after another, and I was like, Oh my god, like like there was just like maybe there was that fear that he was gonna get to that point.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Yeah, I mean, I think it's not just A equals B in your case. I think there's this whole historical piece that is impacting you negatively, and I think for a long time you just kind of try to keep it.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

He's just always eternal. He's never really been like this, though. This is like new behavior.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Like our whole relationship, he's never really been a drinker, like at all. And if he does, it's like one or two, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Yeah. Well, I mean, that's what I think. Is it unreasonable to have a conversation?

SPEAKER_02 48:03

No.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

I mean, so that's what I would think that's what you need to do. Um and again, it's I think on my list there I have it's it's the request. It's just the making of the request. It's not demanding, it's not telling him what he's going to do. It's just saying, hey, would you be willing? Um, because I feel this way when drinking enters into my life. And usually a partner that's like cares about you would say, Yeah, you're right. If that makes sense. I can control, I'll work on that because I don't want you to get upset. It's when the partner says, That's a you issue, I'm gonna do what I want to do. That's like an unkind, uncaring, um, and I would just say wrong.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Yeah, I think that he would like agree, I guess, to like what, but he would like be annoyed about it in a sense. Like, if he doesn't do like what you said and like disagree or whatever, then I think that he would be like kind of like passive about it and just I mean you can sit you can be annoyed.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

I think it's okay to be annoyed, but you can still be loving to your partner and have feelings of annoyance. I don't think what you're asking. When you can drink 24-7 as much as you want, I don't think asking for what you're asking for is outrageous. I think it's very reasonable to ask. It's just um I think it's in how you ask it. And you and he may say no, which is his prerogative.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

And then I just say, okay, have fun.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

I mean, you could drive two cars, you could drive two cars, right? Because and then he'd have to decide is he gonna drive drunk or is he is he gonna stay the night wherever he's at or have someone else drive. Um I just think don't demand things and then see what happens. And if it means you have to drive two cars because you may want to leave when everyone else is getting drunk and you don't want your little your girls to have to see that, then you just leave. Um anyways, okay, let's schedule our schedule. Oh yeah, we have a zoom, don't we?

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Oh, is it? Oh, because I'm yeah, because I'm home. What what's the is that the latest that you do?

unknown 50:37

Let me look.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Is it two o'clock on the 29th?

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Um, I have a three I can do, but other than that, I'm booked.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Okay. What about any other day that week? You don't do you don't do later than three? Like even a four o'clock?

SPEAKER_00 50:53

I have a four o'clock on Monday, the 28th. And three.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Let's do four, let's do four on the Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

And a resume still?

SPEAKER_02 51:08

No, I'll um I'll just have Jason get off a little bit early and then I'll just come in.

unknown 51:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

Yeah, he can just get off early. And then I'll be leaving for a vacation two days later with his parents. So I'm sure there's gonna be stuff to talk about because his we've been uh arguing a little bit about his brother the last few days, which I was gonna talk to you about, but didn't realize alcohol was gonna take care of it.